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Old 12-27-2012, 01:33 AM   #26
 
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I've thought long and hard about posting this, and have done my best to self censor, becasue to truly state the reason for owning a tool such as we speak of would not be acceptable to the masses.

I'll keep it short.

I own and am somewhat proficient with a semi automatic rifle because: it is a tool, that helps me prevent ever watching my wife and daughters be raped and/or murdered. Family defense. If that does not answer the question of why? Maybe the person asking the question does not truly grasp the possibilities that evil can wreak upon this world.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:36 AM   #27
 
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Not aimed at OP. Just a statement of how I feel in general. I understant that OP/rext, is just seeking input, which is why I've posted more than I normally would.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:47 AM   #28
 
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Imagine the carnage 5 or 6 evil hungry SOB's could wreak on your loved ones, then ask yourself, what type of firearm would I hope to have available if, God forbid, that day ever comes. That's what I tell people when discussing 2A.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:52 AM   #29
 
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Question to the anti gun crowd: are you willing to trade an eye for an eye, willing to put down a rabid hyena to protect the flock? If so, then you would not be asking why I or anyone else needs/wants to own a semi auto rifle. I pray the day never comes, but if it does, I pray I have access to a semi auto rifle to enforce the rule of law. The bad guys won't be prayin'. They will have guns a plenty. or just rule by number. Imagine 7 hardened criminals are on your front lawn right now, then ask yourself why anyone would want a rifle with 30 round capability.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:03 AM   #30
 
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Anyone that asks why a semi auto "military style" rifle is needed, is either ignorant, or blind.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:17 AM   #31
 
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Or just plain stupid.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:02 AM   #32
 
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Exactly. I think we have been taking the fight to the wrong people. We arent going to change the left. We dont need to change the right. Its all the people in the middle that decide everything for both sides. They are only hearing the loudest voice about these evil black assault weapons. We arent discussing this with constitutional scholars, so they dont understand the second amendment argument. They arent AR15 owners so they dont understand the appeal. They have always heard the AR being demonized. If we can change the image of the AR it may sway public sentiment? We are trying to sway open minded people that are looking to fit in somewhere. We keep trying to go through the front door with a hammer,maybe we can find a window around the side? If we can difuse some of the anger and steam behind the movement to outlaw them,we might have a chance?
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:10 AM   #33
 
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You have to remember most gun control activists make arguments from a point of complete ignorance about firearms. I'm not sure debating with them is the right course of action. Try to educate them. Make them understand why a mass murderer could create just as much carnage with a couple of 10/22's as he could an AR.

Telling people things like "this is the best gun to defend my family after a nuclear attack" just makes the gun sound even more scary to gun control nuts and makes you sound like a lunatic to a lot of people.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:14 AM   #34
 
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There is a tremendous "normalcy bias" in America. We have lived in a very peaceful nation for many generations, and "it will stay that way" as far as most people are concerned.

This gives a horrible upper hand to any group which is willing to use violence to achieve their goals. They will be able to gain much confusion and advantage by simply being as violent as they are in other parts of the world. Most Americans will be in a state of shock for a period of time, and many will simply surrender to the will of the tyrants simply to try to regain some level of "peace".

Second Amendment gun ownership is not a sport, not about hunting. Sadly, many of the 90+ million gun owners don't have a clue what the Second Amendment is about....but many ARE waking up. These are the people rushing out to empty the shelves of AR15s, magazines and ammo.

Maybe they are a little late to the "party", but at least they are showing up.

I don't think there is any viable way to stop federal legislation on guns. The federal legislators are simply too detached from the People of this country, and too easily manipulated. The source for real protection of the Second Amendment is at the state level.

Since gun bans have but one purpose, to disarm people so they can be subjected to the will of rulers, then it does not take a "majority" of the people in the country, or even in a state, to render gun control ineffective.

There are MANY examples of a small group of active and dedicated people stopping lousy gun legislation, and even enacting very good legislation in this area.

Most of these actions take very few people really. So the hurdle is not to convince "all the gun owners" that guns are good, but rather to convince those that already understand this to get active in the process of protecting their rights. This is a political process, not an armed battle.

If it comes to an armed battle, then we have lost.

It is precisely because too many knowledgeable and understanding gun owners simply sit on the sidelines of the real battle for the preservation of our Rights and Liberties, that they are slipping away and being lost.

It is not enough for a person to have an AR15, and know why they really have it.... They have to take the actions needed to preserve this right.

This means getting involved with the groups/organizations which are engaged in this fight. Volunteering time with these orgs, contributing funding to them, and engaging in the legislative and electoral processes, mostly on the state level, but also local and federal.

For example, Mitch McConnell needs to feel the heat from the people in Kentucky. He is the weak link for us legislatively in D.C. Also the House Representatives, even though Yarmuth is a communist twit, some heat applied there may sway a vote. But the other reps will be under TREMENDOUS PRESSURE to take actions, and they MUST HAVE THE SUPPORT from the people back home to stand strong. If they do not have overwhelming support to fight a ban, they will be politically motivated (strong armed) into going along with one.

But the state level legislators can really put a bind to any federal restrictions which may be imposed. Here is just one example: http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/null...s-freedom-act/

How many good gun owners here know that this legislation has been introduced in the Kentucky legislature for that last 3 years or so? How many of the good gun owners here have contacted their representative to urge the support for this measure?

I know the fella who introduced this bill in the past, and he said his normally very pro-Second Amendment friends in the House would not support it because "the people back home" have not asked them to. It is really that simple.

If a representative does not think that an issue is important to their voters, they will likely not exert much energy to get it moving. Even if they like the bill, to spend energy on one with no support back home, while others which have high levels of support need their attention. It is simply the representative process.

There are state level orgs which are pushing for good legislation in many areas.

Take Back Kentucky is a great organization to get involved with: http://www.takebackkentucky.com/

The Bluegrass Institute is another one: http://www.bipps.org/

Indiana has several good ones as well.

Second Amendment Patriots: http://www.2ndamendmentpatriots.org/

So to derail the OP a little. I don't think that we need to be engaging people to convince them that guns are good. We need to be engaging those who already know that guns are good, and getting them active in the processes of preserving our Rights.

You convince a person that guns are good, you still have to convince them to get active in preserving this Right.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:39 AM   #35
 
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Good post. Thats what I am trying to say. We need to address the people that are not opposed to guns but dont exercise their right. Not the ones that are against them,we cant make them budge. Its all the others. Then we can start pulling this thing in our direction and hopefully more people will get involved in more organizations.I guess thats what I am trying to do here,get more people involved and spread a little different word.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:49 AM   #36
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
You have to remember most gun control activists make arguments from a point of complete ignorance about firearms. I'm not sure debating with them is the right course of action. Try to educate them. Make them understand why a mass murderer could create just as much carnage with a couple of 10/22's as he could an AR.

Telling people things like "this is the best gun to defend my family after a nuclear attack" just makes the gun sound even more scary to gun control nuts and makes you sound like a lunatic to a lot of people.
This is in line with what I am talking about. If someone puts a mic in your face and asks your opinion,you have to make a good statement that doesnt get people lost in history or constitution.If you point out logical thought out reasons it will make people think differently and reconsider our needs/desires.We need to establish a NEED not argue our RIGHTS. Get them on our side, then explain the right.
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:15 AM   #37
 
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AR15's are much like Cadilacs and Lincolns, personel choice, features, quality. We have Fords and Chevys, why do we need Caddy's and Lincolns. The Ar platform allows one to personelize thiere firearm of choice to something that fits thier needs, wants and desires. If you are going to own a firearm as a means of personel protection, dont you think you should have the most reliable one that you can afford.

Just a few ideas im throwing out. I may be all wet but atleast it gives some topics to discuss .

I have never owned an ar, someday i hope to. But I do have enough firepower in my home to defend it to the best of my ability without one. Instead of large capacity mags my theory is to have mutiple weapons fully loaded at my disposal when one becomes unoperable or empty it is faster to pick up another one than to take the 2 or 3 seconds it takes to change mags.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:53 PM   #38
 
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We can talk, until we are blue in the face, about how an AR15 is merely a semi-auto rifle, with a pretty pathetically powered round, but the "fence sitters" could care less.

Frankly, what does anyone expect if the "fence sitters" decide they are not scared of AR15s (or AK47s, or FALs, or ??? any other evil looking rifle)?

All of a sudden the control hungry politicians will back off and go home?

There are MORE than enough gun owners who understand the importance of not restricting AR15s (or any other semi-auto rifle), magazine capacity, or such, so adding another million or more to those ranks really does nothing for "the cause".

Sure it may make you feel better to convince someone that they are wrong about the issues, but in the grand scheme of things, it is really just an exercise in making oneself feel good.

What is NEEDED is the millions of gun owners who actually understand the folly of gun bans/restrictions to actually get active in the process which is trying to impose just such bans/restrictions. Unfortunately, that is a political process.

However, we have many gun owners who have checked out of the political process, and have convinced themselves that they are "better for it".

Having a million more gun owners who understand, but still sit on the sidelines, does nothing for the cause of Liberty. Getting 10 or 20% of the current gun owners to get active, now that likely solves the problems we face.

Convincing Sally Muckenfutch at work that an AR15 is her friend is meaningless. However, getting Joe Shooter to understand that he has to actually get engaged in the political processes which are working to strip him of his Right will help the cause in a very real way.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:47 PM   #39
 
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When someone ask me for a "need" for AR-15's I try to explain it as this:

You don't need that 500-hp sports car to get you around. A 150 hp sedan will do the will get you from point A to B just as well. It is the same way with rifles/ar 15. I don't need a AR 15, but I have the right to a choice just like you have the right to chose a sports car over a sedan. So if you use that logic and that cars are more deadly than weapons, then we need to ban cars with over 150 hp.

Edit: KYOutpost: GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!

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Old 12-27-2012, 01:49 PM   #40
 
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I always compare guns to cars when debating this question. Using this concept was the first time I was able to get my VERY anti gun sister to come down off her pedestal.

When I’m asked that now famous question “Why do you NEED an AR.” I always simply answer, “I don’t…. I don’t NEED an AR. I can hunt with a bolt action and defend my family with my pistol… the thing is I want one… they’re cool. ARs are the sport cars of the gun world, they look cool and they make you feel awesome! No one really NEEDS a sports car, but there are thousands of them on the roads everyday. The highest speed limit in the US is 80 mph yet the Chevy Z06 Corvette can do over WELL over 150, maybe exceeding 200 mph, with a stock motor. WHY?, because it’s cool. A responsible sports car owner would never drive their car at top speed, just like responsible AR owners will probably never use their rifle the purpose it was created.”
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:56 PM   #41
 
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That's a good response KY
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:28 PM   #42
 
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The same reason I "NEED" free speech.
To keep my govt in check without ever really having to use it.

Take Nukes for example.

We have them and I doubt we will ever use them again.
But us having them ensures no one else will use one on us.

Except for the few crazies out there that don't care about being nuked back.
And for those few crazy people, we make sure they do not get nukes.
But we don't do it by taking away the nukes from America.


Honestly I hope and pray that I never "NEED" it. But if the time comes, I will be happy I have it.
Sort of like a fire extinguisher.
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Old 12-27-2012, 06:13 PM   #43
 
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I need 30 rounds for the same reason the Police need them in their AR's, because I may come up against the same people they are afraid of one day...

Tom Gresham said it best. If we agree that there IS a number that is too many then we give them the ability to decide how many is too many. Because if 30 is too many then how about 29? Well if 29 is too many then maybe 20 or 10 is too many also...

Anybody want to plug a couple cylinders in your handgun if 6 is deemed too many?

We can't let these people control the questions, we have to turn it back around to what it is, a mentally ill person that killed people.

The biggest school massacre in U.S. history didn't even involve a gun. Google Bath School Massacre.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:13 PM   #44
 
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I have an AR because it makes it less likely that I will actually have to use a weapon to injure someone in a threatening situation. If someone is breaking in my home or threatening me, an AR in my hand will usually defuse the situation. If not, then it's the best defense outside a police officer and his backups....who will probably arrive only soon enough to investigate the crime that's already been perpertrated on me should I not have been able to protect myself.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:16 PM   #45
 
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or, as someone wisely said, "I have a gun because a cop is too heavy to carry around."
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:17 AM   #46
 
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My typical response to someone who asks if I have an assault weapon - is to tell them that it is not an assualt weapon, it is a high capacity sporting/defense rifle. I then quiz the person(s) back with a few quick questions.

If they seem conservative and yet a touch on the liberal side -

I ask if they know how many Russian people were murdered in recent modern history under Joseph Stalin during his leadership role of the Soviet Union.

How about, how many innocent people have lost their lives during the last 100 years through government domicide.

I follow-up with the astonishing facts -

Stalin murdered about 43,000,000 citizens and foreigners.

Government domicide over the last 100 years totals an unbelievable 174,000,000 vs the 38,000,000 lives lost in wars during the same time period.



If they are just plain lib's I go with . . .

I tell them that according to the CIA and the FBI, the USA was and is considered to be the last country that would be invaded by any other country in the world for the last 70 years. The primary reason stated . . . . America's military and reserve personel account for a mear fraction of the armed and ready population in the USA.

I continue with - We should give real credit to our founding fathers to have the foresight with the second amendment to allow it's citizens the abilty to protect our country and fellow countrymen.

And unfortunately we are no different then any other modern country, there are quite few bad eggs out there. If we had more stringent than today's lenient incarcerations for any weapon related crimes along with less accommodating prisons, I feel it would go along way in reducing crime in this country.

Back in the day people really feared prisons like Attica, Rikers ect.

Therefore, my AR15 is my personal choice for my sporting rifle and it also serves as a personal defense rifle to protect my family and yours.


I my opinion - just a suggestion,

I know since everthing is done cheaper in China or Cambodia, let's outsource our weapon related convicted criminals to the Chinese or Cambodian prison systems and see how that works out.

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Old 12-28-2012, 03:51 AM   #47
 
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Those people that you wish to debate, do not want a debate. They want your acceptace that they are correct. Long ago I gave up changing anyones mind who asked that question, there were never interested in the answer.

We need to try and get the people in the center who are not rabid anti gun lunitics (yep I mean that word). I consider people who are rabidly anti gun mentally unstable. I also consider anyone like that dangerous. I believe people like that would do anything and I mean anything to forward an agenda of taking peoples guns. It does not matter the means as long as the end is a populace that has no guns.

I fear nothing good will come of this latest fight but more hard feelings. I fear this may be a point of no return for this Great Nation. Sorry but a little pessimistic right now.
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:23 AM   #48
 
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Chopper Doc on the other site posted this. I am glad I am not the only one seeing it.This is what this thread is all about.
I tried to post the entire thing and it is too long.Please go the link and read this.

http://tacstrikeblog.com/hate-speech...tter-argument/
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:59 AM   #49
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whtdragn View Post
Those people that you wish to debate, do not want a debate. They want your acceptace that they are correct.
As do we.



Which we are. ;-)
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:17 AM   #50
 
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Perhaps "audience identification" should be discussed in this context? Cause it seems there is a little cross talk on this specific issue.

Who are we trying to reach? Who are we engaging in conversation/debate? and what are we trying to accomplish?

Answering these questions can surely dictate the tactics and message we are trying to convey.

If you are engaged or entrapped by a rabid, anti-gun, anti-freedom, America hating communist liberal, well, you face a situation where they are not trying to convince you of anything, nor are they going to be swayed by you about anything.

They have ONE agenda and that is to push their control agenda over you and the rest of the country. They will do this by trying to discredit you and if possible, get you to simply shut up and sit down. If they can get you to disengage from the "debate" and the political processes they are using to disarm you and turn you into a subject of the government, then that is a small victory for them.

If they can get you to turn others around you off (this could be others in the room who are undecided, or who are looking to see if the media narrative on the issues and the people involved are true), then they reap another victory. BTW, this "room" may be a physical room, or a virtual room.

The recipe for victory on our part should include the ability to remain calm (remember, they want to paint gun owners as uncontrolled hot heads who are a threat if armed, and will resort to violence at the drop of a hat), and to be able to convey facts which are verifiable.

These facts are not for the rabid anti-American communist, but rather for those who are witnessing the debate. Provide links where you can. Site official information and data, where possible. Provide verifiable direct quotes of the Founders and others if you are making such a case.

This means you HAVE TO DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!

Start a data base of information you wish to use. Put links in your "Bookmarks" or "Favorites" that you find useful, so you can quickly find them if engaged in an impromptu debate. Jot down some notes and carry them with you if you are one to engage in real, face to face debates on these issues. Don't hesitate to whip out your smart phone which contains notes and links.

Remember WHO your ultimate audience is, and that is those who are NOT the rabid anti-American communist who wish to control you, so don't direct your comments to them, but rather to those who are seeking real information and real discussion on these issues.

There is no single approach which will prove successful every time, for everyone. So you have to be able to learn to read your "audience".

Are they concerned about security/safety "of the children"? Then give them the information (links and data citations) which illustrate how guns are used as a tool for security/safety of the children. How "gun free zones" have fostered an environment of death for our schools. etc.

Are they concerned about Freedoms and Liberties? Then make the connections between all the Freedoms and Liberties they value (ask them which they value most) and the ownership of firearms. Give them Founder's quotes, but also practical applications in modern times.

Are they simply clueless about firearms? Then explain this stuff in First Grader language so they can understand it. Remember, "technical and complicated" gets lost on the modern American, as a rule, they simply can not follow it. For sure they could never repeat it if others ask them what they gleaned from their conversation with your (or what they overheard during your debate above).

Remember, our most ripe target audience is the current gun owners. Over 90 million of them. If we can mobilize just a fraction of them, that would put an end to this silliness of an AWB.

So our internal "gun culture" discussions can not be about "revolution", "civil war", or any such non-productive fantasy ideas. We don't need any of this stuff because we already OWN the country (no revolution needed) and the other side only wins if they can goad the American people into a civil war.

The other side will not attack if they don't feel they can gain the support of the people, and the military, and the law enforcement. Our goal should be to convince them they do not have this support, and can not gain it.

This is why they are so aggressive in demonizing the gun owners of this country. They MUST convince a large majority of the people, the military and the law enforcement that you are not just wrong, not just incorrect, but EVIL.

So your first order of business needs to be to not help them convince those around you that you are evil. Sensible, well thought out, and able to speak clearly about a subject which many in the gun culture feel they are experts in.

If an "expert" loses control, spews filth and unintelligent or unverifiable information, then what are the on-lookers to assume from this? Yep, that the media and anti-American communist have a point, that American gun owners are evil and ARE the problem.

Remember, those who actively wish to disarm you will not compromise on an argumentative point. You can "compromise" and say that a civilian does not need a magazine with 100 rounds....but they will never concede that a person should be allowed ANY rounds. So you can not argue "degrees" with these people. They are all about control over you. You give them a degree of control, they want more, they are never happy.

So compromise is not an option, even if you think it makes you look "reasonable" or "open minded".

Also keep in mind. They have, as a very real goal and purpose, to get YOU to feel incapable of making a change. They want you to give up. If that means you simply say to yourself you will simply wait for them to come get your guns and you will fight them then, they still win. Cause by your very idleness, you have allowed them to gain the support from the people, the military and the law enforcement to actually "come get your guns", and as such, they win.

See, they could care less how many military, police and civilians get killed in a botched gun confiscation effort. In fact, that is part of their desire. Tyrants love mass murder, just look at history. Many on the left already tell us that the earth is way too over populated. So if they can get enough people, military and police to go along with a gun confiscation plan, they can justify to them that the resulting carnage is justifiable and the cause of "evil gun owners".

Our goal has to be to stop this process in the hearts and minds of our fellow gun owners, first, then the general public.

Polls tell us we have the majority of people on our side. The other side is trying to change this by getting us to look irrational, unreasonable, and evil. Are you helping them, or us by your actions?
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